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gdrumfoot Posted - 17/04/2012 : 12:01:09
Found this on Facebook,says it all really.

http://elisabethhobbs.co.uk/2012/04/16/do-you-work-for-free/
10   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
OriginalAnimal Posted - 17/04/2012 : 17:23:17
Much as i really enjoy making music, I will not play for free, I expect decent money and a full catering rider. otherwise I would rather stay in bed.

I have done my sher of freebies and someone is always making a lot of money out of them, hence charity or not, they pay!
Henry Piper Posted - 17/04/2012 : 17:07:07
quote:
Originally posted by Allegro

[quote]Originally posted by Sharklaar
Just been reading a few articles about this subject and came across the following quote...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

So which are we...?


Neither, the man and the world should stay as it is
[/quote
My attitude is that whilst doing gigs for no financial reward can be useful in the early stages of a bands career,by way of publicity.exposure etc,its got to be matched by some give and take,if your not taking a fee for working then it seems fair that the promoter/venue should shoulder the cost of publicity and Promotion.

Unfortunately this will continue until every musician says NO, and refuses to pay for nought,If somebody books you to do a job you should expect to be paid after all presumably there hoping to get some financial reward, so should you, even if that reward is modest in the early stages of the bands career, perhaps only some travelling expenses.
Allegro Posted - 17/04/2012 : 15:59:12
quote:
Originally posted by Sharklaar
Just been reading a few articles about this subject and came across the following quote...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

So which are we...?


Neither, the man and the world should stay as it is
Mark W Posted - 17/04/2012 : 15:55:50
Hi All,
What an excellent and well written article.
For my part, both as a hobbyist band member & in my working life of the past 27 years (how long!) my experience of people doing favours, things for free, things that will raise their profile, things that will look good when they're up for promotion etc etc is that they generally get stiffed while someone who didn't fall for that claptrap reaps the words.
As someone clever once said, no good deed goes unpunished.

Cheerio
Mark W
Sharklaar Posted - 17/04/2012 : 14:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by gdrumfoot

Dan, everything you've said is true. The danger, I feel, with this, is that if everyone accepts the situation as it is and we all say "well thats how it is and we've got to make the best of it" nothing will ever change, probably get worse if anything and I'll be the first one to admit I don't know how it can change.



Just been reading a few articles about this subject and came across the following quote...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

So which are we...?
gdrumfoot Posted - 17/04/2012 : 14:40:49
Dan, everything you've said is true. The danger, I feel, with this, is that if everyone accepts the situation as it is and we all say "well thats how it is and we've got to make the best of it" nothing will ever change, probably get worse if anything and I'll be the first one to admit I don't know how it can change.
Dan Bear Taylor Posted - 17/04/2012 : 13:37:22
Sorry guys, I wish everyone got paid a decent wage for all the hard work they put into their craft and buying the equipment etc, but the truth of the matter is their is only money in orginal music if the band has a following of some kind. Promoting bands no one has heard of playing music which has not been heard is not going to generate a return for a venue or promoter.

Original bands need to generate their own fan base from people who like what they do, this will involve promoting their own gigs but also gaining support slots to bigger bands in a similar genre.

The good news is that once you have a fan, its never been easier or cheaper to engage with that person through on line social media.

No unsigned originals band has ever made money and a good deal of signed bands havent made any dough either.
swampy Posted - 17/04/2012 : 13:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by Sharklaar


The venues need to make money. They can't make money if they take a chance on a band and the band hasn't promoted the event and brings 5 people with them who all sit there and have half a coke each all night. So who's fault is it..?

Should the band do all of the promoting? We've had gigs from 'promotors' who have said as a condition of us playing we need to bring a crowd, and it's plainly obvious that the 'promotor' hasn't put an ounce of effort into actually promoting the gig. These people are not 'promotors', they are 'organisers'.

</rant>



Just to stick my two penneth in:

Larger "professional" bands use a tour promoter (lets say SJM for sake of argument). The tour promotor will promote the gig then liase between the venue and the band.

There is a certain amount of crossover though as venues "promote" the gig on their website or on posters with a lot of other gigs.

I guess it's a case of smaller venues unrealistically wanting the benefits that larger venues and bands are afforded.


[edit]

...and I have lost count of the times people have said to me, "will you do this website? we can't pay you but it will look great in your portfolio". Er, let me think, no! I've been doing this 10 years I don't need to do free work for my portfolio as I have enough paying clients to fill it.
gdrumfoot Posted - 17/04/2012 : 12:56:50
Couldn't have put it better myself. Just one point however that really gets my goat. Expecting bands to do all the promoting, guarantee a crowd, often do your own door (some big lads) provide or hire the PA, maybe lights as well. Printed posters, tickets, flyers at their own cost. It always makes me feel like saying to the "promoter" will you be, in return, be buying instruments/equipment, spend hours practicing on your own and hours rehearsing with the band & playing and singing on the night.
Sharklaar Posted - 17/04/2012 : 12:31:15
Warning... rant ahead.... I'm just typing my thoughs as I think them here. It's a subject I ponder quite a lot. Having just read it back it appears I digress a little, but here are my thoughts...

It's so true. I completely agree.

But there is a problem. There are so many people willing to work for free that it is becoming more and more difficult to get paid... If we approach a venue looking for work, we don't get asked "what's your fee", I think it's assumed that (if you play original music especially) you will work for free unless you are big and popular enough to guarantee a large crowd.

If we ask for money, they go to the next band round the corner who will bite their arm off to play for nothing because they just want to play.

So what causes the problem...?

The venues need to make money. They can't make money if they take a chance on a band and the band hasn't promoted the event and brings 5 people with them who all sit there and have half a coke each all night. So who's fault is it..?

Should the band do all of the promoting? We've had gigs from 'promotors' who have said as a condition of us playing we need to bring a crowd, and it's plainly obvious that the 'promotor' hasn't put an ounce of effort into actually promoting the gig. These people are not 'promotors', they are 'organisers'.

If a venue is regularly putting on music nights then should they put more effort into promoting their nights rather than expecting the bands to do all the work? Should they perhaps put more effort into getting the punters to regularly go there to see some local musicians? If they were to build up a regular clientele then they would take enough over the bar to regularly pay the bands.

Of course bands still need to promote themselves to build up their own following, but unless a band is made up of kids at school/college, I've found it's difficult to bring all of your mates to every gig, because they will inevitably get bored of it in the end. Without the help of venues attracting people who are interested to listen to different bands regularly, it's difficult to build a fan-base from the bottom up.

And so in an effort to build a fan base, many many bands play for free to bar staff, other bands and WAGS because gigs aren't properly promoted by anyone with half a clue.

And so the circle goes on and nobody gets paid for their work. Except the sound man, the bouncers, the bar staff, the organisers..... Oh hang on, no it's just the musicians that don't get paid...

</rant>

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