| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 20:03:51
We're planning to record a load of our own songs soon, except we'll be doing the drums in a studio as we don't have the means to record them well ourselves.
A couple of the guys would I think be competent at mixing stuff, having done a few tracks before on the banjo, with a sequenced drum track. But... If we record the drums in the studio and get the raw files back, how tricky is it to mix the drum sound? Would it be worth paying the dude to mix them and get a fully mixed drum track back? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| dogface |
Posted - 20/04/2012 : 17:25:13
I have a bit of a bugbear about NS10s - I think they just sound horrible. However, a mate of mine owns and runs a recording studio and gets very, very good results; and he uses NS10s for the bulk of his monitoring. Go figure. It baffles me (excuse the pun). |
| crafty |
Posted - 20/04/2012 : 17:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by teethmeister
There is another difference between most small studio monitor speakers and Hi-Fi speakers (top end Hi-Fi or not). The difference is that they are EQd for listening in the near-field - i.e. your head is expected to be 6 foot away from them or considerably less. Hi-Fi speakers are designed for far-field listening. And, yes, as has been said, Hi-Fi speakers are often quite "rose tinted" in their sound.
But I would not discount using good hi-fi speakers for mixing. However, what you need to do is to train your ears to know what they sound like. So you need to listen to a lot of different recordings (but preferably in the style of the music you are going to be mixing) on those speakers in the position and room you are going to be mixing in. In fact, come back to these recordings regularly as a sanity check while you are mixing your own stuff.
Definitely do not use PA speakers for mixing a recording. Headphones are not a wise choice either. They are more fatiguing for one and they give a different impression of the stereo image.
I didn't think anyone used NS10s for actual mixing. I thought they were usually the "how will this mix translate to smaller speakers" secondary reference. Sounds like I may be wrong on that point.
However you mix, it's always worth having a reference in order to measure you mixes against - a piece of music that you know extremely well through alsorts of speakers and headphones - something that you know is well eq'd and balanced (mastering withstanding) and is relevent. I use a wide range of stuff as a reference depending on what I'm mixing. I finished a mix of my own tune earlier today and referred to a Peter Gabriel song that I had stuffed on track 25 and 26. It keeps you planted as your ears start to play tricks on you during a long session. For me, it stops me over-egging the extreme highs and lows in the mix and keeping compression neat. Highly recommended. |
| teethmeister |
Posted - 20/04/2012 : 17:05:01
There is another difference between most small studio monitor speakers and Hi-Fi speakers (top end Hi-Fi or not). The difference is that they are EQd for listening in the near-field - i.e. your head is expected to be 6 foot away from them or considerably less. Hi-Fi speakers are designed for far-field listening. And, yes, as has been said, Hi-Fi speakers are often quite "rose tinted" in their sound.
But I would not discount using good hi-fi speakers for mixing. However, what you need to do is to train your ears to know what they sound like. So you need to listen to a lot of different recordings (but preferably in the style of the music you are going to be mixing) on those speakers in the position and room you are going to be mixing in. In fact, come back to these recordings regularly as a sanity check while you are mixing your own stuff.
Definitely do not use PA speakers for mixing a recording. Headphones are not a wise choice either. They are more fatiguing for one and they give a different impression of the stereo image.
I didn't think anyone used NS10s for actual mixing. I thought they were usually the "how will this mix translate to smaller speakers" secondary reference. Sounds like I may be wrong on that point. |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 20/04/2012 : 15:44:27
Just to open a can of worms... what is the general opinion on mixing with headphones? |
| Bewdy |
Posted - 20/04/2012 : 15:25:40
Often one of the most overlooked aspects of studio monitors is their designed to withstand very high SPLs or big transient sounds in a way hifi speakers are not, and certainly with the more common studio monitors Yamaha NS10Ms in point there a lot of spares around for the time that you do indeed fry them. Some of the reasons that the NS10ms became ubiquitous in studios were; they were a fairly predictable speaker, so engineers new what they were getting from them when they were mixing and felt at home with them where ever they worked, the offer a fairly flat response, they were easy to maintain and also the thinking was, if you can get it to sound good on the yamahas, it will sound good on just about anything.
Personally I believe you can mix on just about anything as long as you know the characteristics of that speaker and therefore compensate for it. it obviously helps the flatter the response though, but the room is just as much an influence as the speaker. |
| D.C. |
Posted - 18/04/2012 : 14:28:59
Im not arguing that the B&W are good speakers/monitors-i wouldnt know, but for the the money they cost you could easily buy a couple of decent sets of dedicated (home)studio monitors (whether thats a marketing ploy or not) and,in my opinion,are a bit of an overkill for the average home user.monitors costing a quarter of the price of the B&W's would more than suitable for home use and you'd still come up with good enough results for most but i totally agree that keeping the recording process itself as simple as possible can make the whole mixing process also a lot easier! |
| dogface |
Posted - 18/04/2012 : 14:11:18
^ You might find this article interesting
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506/index.html
Are B&W 801s hi-fi speakers or studio monitors? They're used in studios and they're sold to audiophiles, too. The point I'm trying to make is that the distinction between monitors and non-monitors is an arbitrary one which has been dreamed up by marketing departments. Surely no one thinks the Yamaha NS10 is an accurate loudspeaker, do they? Despite that, Yamaha managed to convince a hell of a lot of studios to buy them.
However, I certainly agree that the acoustics of the monitoring environment will have a big effect on what you hear.
As for mixing drums, I must confess to limited experience, but the mixing will get more demanding as you add more mics. A mate of mine recently recorded some stuff and got excellent sounding drums by using a fairly basic micing technique often refered to as "recorderman". I think you can overcomplicate things.
Of course, it all depends on the music you're making. What works for an acoustic folk band won't be the same as for a speed metal band. |
| D.C. |
Posted - 18/04/2012 : 13:40:26
I must admit Im not too savvy on high end speaker technology like the B&w's etc but i imagine-like most hi-fi speakers they are 'sweetened' somewhat to produce certain frequencies nicely-to make music sound better ? A lot of the cheaper ones tend to boost bottom and top ends mostly so to mix on anything like that could cause problems when you go to play your tracks on a different set of speakers!I wouldnt totally dismiss mixing on whatever speakers you have at hand or can afford but i think,long-term,it is quicker to use proper monitors but when or if you were to decide to also master the tracks afterwards,half-decent monitors are essential-some studios do offer a mastering only this service.Also the size and shape of the room and positioning of your speakers in the room can make quite a difference,not to mention whether the room has carpeted floors and walls etc!I guess it depends on how 'pro' you want it to sound and what the your recordings will be used for.
Going back to the original question as to whether you should have 'the dude mix your drums' id say no,personally.You might find that the drums sound awesome on their own but when you come to add other instruments over the top-like bass guitar for instance,you may have trouble with frequency clashes that you cant do much about.Because of the huge spectrum of frequencies that the drums occupy i think youd find that your bass guitar would clash at the bottom end,guitars clashing in the middle and top etc and it could be more trouble than you bargained for.Mix it all together-youll have more control and get a far better mix and be happier with the end results i reckon |
| dogface |
Posted - 18/04/2012 : 11:25:30
quote:
Originally posted by D.C.
A set of proper monitors is pretty much a must have if your going to mix your own tracks.Allegedly they give out a flat response which,in theory means that if they sound good on flat response speakers the tracks should sound good on any subsequent system you play them on.Never mix on PA or your home stereo speakers-it will most probably sound pants on other systems.
This is an opinion I've disagreed with in the past and still remain to be convinced is valid. The idea that "studio monitors" give a true respresentation of the music and "hi-fi" speakers don't is not convincing to me. It used to be the norm that good speakers were bought by studios and hi-fi afficionardos alike and no distinction was made between the two markets.
I suspect that domestic hi-fi has sunk to such a low status and has become such a low priority in most modern households that the term "home stereo speakers" has become a synonym for "cheap nasty rubbish", in which you would certainly be wise to avoid monitoring with them. However, if your home stereo speakers happen to be BBC LS3/5As or B&W 801s (not as unlikely as you might think), then go ahead and use them.
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| D.C. |
Posted - 17/04/2012 : 22:59:32
A set of proper monitors is pretty much a must have if your going to mix your own tracks.Allegedly they give out a flat response which,in theory means that if they sound good on flat response speakers the tracks should sound good on any subsequent system you play them on.Never mix on PA or your home stereo speakers-it will most probably sound pants on other systems.
Its can be a very daunting process at first but there are so many forums on the subject these days that a lot of help is out there.I mixed my bands last demo and,although far from it being perfect,I learnt a hell of a lot from it and as challenging as it was,it was also very enjoyable.Try to find or learn where different instruments fit into the frequency spectrum-there are guides and charts on line for this-it will be your best friend for the the whole process and an invaluable tool to stop your mixes sounding cramped and mushy and make sure you initially have the best quality audio to work with that you can-it will save a lot of time,head scratching and frustration long term!
I think Iv given more than what you originally asked for or probably wanted haha!! |
| crafty |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:43:08
Sounds like a golden opportunity to start on the road to learn about mixing. Go for it. Learn from your mistakes and you just may come up with some great sounding tracks. Everyone has to start somewhere and I sense you're up for the challenge. Do it! |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by rufusisdrumming
quote:
Originally posted by Sharklaar
And well if it turns out we're wrong, we won't have lost too much dollar in the process.
Very good point, if you do it yourself you can keep going back and remixing parts as you feel your skills improving.
Yeah this is kinda the idea - we'll learn some stuff about it along the way, and for the amount of tunes we want to do, the studio we normally go to is becoming prohibitively expensive. |
| rufusisdrumming |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:26:07
quote:
Originally posted by Sharklaar
And well if it turns out we're wrong, we won't have lost too much dollar in the process.
Very good point, if you do it yourself you can keep going back and remixing parts as you feel your skills improving. |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:17:11
Well we've just done a couple that I'd consider close to release quality all mixed and mastered by the studio dude. But we want to do enough tracks to fill an album, and you're talking a couple of grand's worth of studio and mixing time at least. We've got about 20 decent songs we want to record properly at some point, and given we've got a fair bit of knowledge and experience in the band we figured we might be able to do it ourselves. And well if it turns out we're wrong, we won't have lost too much dollar in the process. |
| TrevCircleStudios |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:12:53
Maybe you are thinking about this from the wrong perspective. What are you going to do with these songs? If it's to shop to labels to try and get a deal, they don't wanna hear more than three tracks but they need to be absolutely release quality. If it is for you and your mates to listen to then it may be worth cutting corners. If you are serious about this game however, it isn't (in which case imo you are better to pay to do just one song really well than 7 songs badly.) YMMV of course. |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 22:07:49
Well the last couple of songs we did, we've spent two days recording everything, and then the dude has spent a day mixing. That's all at £220 a day. I reckon if we get a load of guide tracks made beforehand, I can nail 6 or 7 tracks a day. Then he'd probably need a day to mix them all, so an extra £220 on top of the recording. Lots of cash considering we're all pretty broke after spending a shedload on the track we just recorded. He's still mixing that one... |
| rufusisdrumming |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 21:57:31
Yes, its something that is often overlooked but I hang out a lot on another dedicated recording forum and although they are such boring (and expensive) items to buy there is a general consensus that you can make a better record with a built in sound card and a set of specialised recording monitors then with a equivalent priced recording chain and a normal pair of speakers. Nothing to do with the quality of the speakers but they way they're set up to play sound. So even the high end PA stuff may not be right for the job, but I am far from an expert.
On another note do you have a quote for the price of getting the studio to mix the drums? It might not be so much and depending on your own experience it could yield much better results. |
| Sharklaar |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 21:44:44
This is a very good point, and one which I hadn't thought of. I have masses of gear at my disposal, my dad's got shedloads of high end PA stuff I can borrow easily. |
| rufusisdrumming |
Posted - 16/04/2012 : 21:30:52
How good are your monitors? Thats a very important factor, as is how good the room you'll be mixing in is. by that I mean how sound reflects inside the room. Basically theres no point spending the money and effort of recording in a purpose built studio with £200+ mics if when you come to edit it you can hear what your doing. |
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