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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
 Posted - 14/09/2011 : 13:17:27
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....Sort of...
Becuase we can't afford to pay out for studio time @£120+ a day, I'm going to be recording the band using my gear. I was after any advice you people have for me specifically regarding my questions(below). I've booked myself 5-6hours to get 4 drum tracks laid down. Or less if I run out of time. The room I'm using is large, and dead as a cat on its 10th life (snare drums sound HUGE in it, bass drums/toms just sound like cardboard).
The gear I have is:
A Computer :-) with Mixcraft 5 (Not too bad of a programme)
Motu 8pre Interface
Red5 Audio Mic kit
An SM57
2 SE2000? Condenser mics
Stands/leads (and extra I can borrow from the studio)
I have got the lads to play the songs by plugging directly into the interface so I have the "guide tracks" with a click.
I know there's not much time, but I can tune the kit on saturday and prepare then! So here are my main questions:
1. How do you tune your kit in comparison to "standard" tuning?
2. Where is the "best" place to put the mics, (I'm thinking mainly bass drum/overheads) I understand there is alot to experiment with but I dont have the money or the time.
3. How should I mic up the amps(when it comes to it)? What mics will work best?
4. How do I mix the songs at the "end" to make them loud without distorting? Is there anything I can do before mastering etc to improve the sound?
I think thats the main points as well as any other advice you can offer me for studio time. We are basically recording a small EP and its a bit of a DIY job, but we wanted full control over it. I also find it less stressful than having 3hours to lay down songs at a studio, with everyone watching!
I hope I was quite clear!
Thanks again drummers
Ant |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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neokoenig
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1114 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2011 : 13:41:32
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1) Every room is different, as is every kit, and the end sound you want. But in my case, compared to live, I do have to break out the moongel/gaffa tape to stop too many overtones in the primary tom sound.
2) If you can, put the bass mic in the drum itself (on a stand outside going in through the hole) - it'll help a bit with bleed from the tom/snare/cymbals: nearer the front head, the more clicky sound, further away = more drum sound. For snare/toms, close miking is usually the done thing, I think the clamps in the RED5 kit will limit you positioning wise, but start with about 1-2 inches from the head and go from there. Overheads are more complex, but you're aiming for about as high above the kit and your stands will manage: remember, you're aiming for a stereo image. THere's lots on youTube about mic positioning.
3) Start with a SM57 on the cabinets, or if you've got it, a ribbon mic. Or you could DI/Model them.
4) Just don't hit the red/clip when recording and watch your gain levels. Compression is used to level out the dynamic range (which will make it feel 'louder' arguably). But this is a massive subject, and I've run out of writing energy.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/dec97/drumiking1.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan98/articles/drummik.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb03/articles/drummiking.asp |
Drum Studio Build | I hit this - Kit in Studio | My Band - Munkey | Photography | I run this - DrumFlam.com
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2011 : 14:24:13
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Thanks dude, for the super fast reply. I will print those and read through them (Havn't got internet at home yet hence why I'm asking here).
Also, I have a choice of snares to use. Is there a "better" snare to record with? I understand its personal choice, but are some snares better recorded and some better for live use?
12"x5" FVF Maple custom
14"x7" FVF Hybrid wood/acrylic/wood custom
14"x6.5" FVF Brass custom
14"x6.5" Black Panther (Birdseye)
14"x5.5" Black Panther Phosphur Bronze Hammered
Playing rock/pop/hardish stuff |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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Bewdy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
820 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2011 : 21:56:32
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| I'm just mixing some tracks we put down some time ago, and my current thinking is this. I wish I hadn't muffled the toms so much, I used dampening rings on them all, as I do for playing live, but for recording I think it is has killed the life of the toms. As a rule of thumb, with recording it's a lot easier to get rid of sounds than it is to put them back!! Out of the fully mic'd kit, the best sound in the recording is without doubt coming from the overheads (i used condensers) so position them carefully. There's frequencies in there which just aren't getting picked up by the dynamic mics. If I could do it all again I'd try and get condensers on everything, I just think they sound so much clearer. |
LEARN TO DRUM ON THE iPHONE www.mapexdrummasterclass.com
WORK: www.virtual-engineering.co.uk PLAY: http://soundcloud.com/voodoo-cartel |
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neokoenig
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1114 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2011 : 22:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by drummerant
Thanks dude, for the super fast reply. I will print those and read through them (Havn't got internet at home yet hence why I'm asking here).
Also, I have a choice of snares to use. Is there a "better" snare to record with? I understand its personal choice, but are some snares better recorded and some better for live use?
12"x5" FVF Maple custom
14"x7" FVF Hybrid wood/acrylic/wood custom
14"x6.5" FVF Brass custom
14"x6.5" Black Panther (Birdseye)
14"x5.5" Black Panther Phosphur Bronze Hammered
Playing rock/pop/hardish stuff
It really is a matter of 'what sounds good' to *your* ears. Without knowing the head choice and tuning of each drum, I wouldn't be able say really. The reason some snares get legendary status as recording snares is down to versatility (on top of great sound) - i.e a Ludwig 400 - you could use that in pretty much any musical setting as it's good cranked up really high, or tuned low.
Take as many snares as you have space for though - it's a really nice luxury to have the option of switching the snare if the sound's not working for you. |
Drum Studio Build | I hit this - Kit in Studio | My Band - Munkey | Photography | I run this - DrumFlam.com
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 12:38:35
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| Thanks again for the replies. That article got a read and it was very helpful! Yeh, I will be taking a few snares with me, thats one of the reasons we are recording. So we have more control on the songs etc and can spend a little more time messing around with the little bits. Thanks again fellas |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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cho_drummer
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
3120 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 16:19:14
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£120 a day is cheap. It equates to about £12 per hour for use of a studio with an engineer. I'd be saving up and biting the guy's hand off if I were in your position.
By all means, do it yourself, but, don't expect a good recording.
The popular misconception at the moment seems to be that because basic gear is cheap, anyone can start recording their band and expect a good result. This is not the case.
I can afford to buy a hammer and some nails, but, I wouldn't go around calling myself a handyman because I've not built up the skill set required. Equipment is a tiny part of the solution. |
www.myspace.com/milocho
www.myspace.com/raisingangelsmusic |
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 10:31:56
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quote:
Originally posted by cho_drummer
£120 a day is cheap. It equates to about £12 per hour for use of a studio with an engineer. I'd be saving up and biting the guy's hand off if I were in your position.
By all means, do it yourself, but, don't expect a good recording.
The popular misconception at the moment seems to be that because basic gear is cheap, anyone can start recording their band and expect a good result. This is not the case.
I can afford to buy a hammer and some nails, but, I wouldn't go around calling myself a handyman because I've not built up the skill set required. Equipment is a tiny part of the solution.
Sorry, I just guessed at that price, I know that it would be that or more though. Also they usually say "one song per day, and a day to master". Which is understandable and fair enough. but thats 5 days, so thats a minimum of 600 plus expenses....
I totally see where you're comming from though. And my point is that we are just starting out, so lets try it this way? |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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cho_drummer
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
3120 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 11:15:57
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It totally depends what you want from it, but realistically, if you were doing a skilled job in your own premesis with your own overheads etc and were getting £12 an hour for work that's not always going to be coming in daily and you still have costs to cover bills to pay etc etc. There's not much room to move. That's one of the reasons studios cost as much as they do. Because it physically costs money to equip a studio then the engineer needs to feed himself (and family) as well as trying to keep down costs as much as possible. Yes, you're looking at £600 to produce the recording but realistically what can you produce for £600 that's going to be better?
I spent 3 years at university essentially learning how to use a studio and how to produce music that sounds good and essentially what steps I need to take to achieve the sound I was after. If we look at that in cash terms, it cost me about £20,000 to do that course (though I've not paid most of it back yet, that's irrelevant). So, £20,000 in my case to give me the skill set required to produce good sounding music. Still, I'm improving all the time. I've also spent a lot of money on studio gear. (Most of it second hand to keep prices down) but as it stands I've spent about £4-5k on studio gear. That puts us roughly at £25,000. That's just for a bedroom studio. If I were to rent a studio space and open a business I estimate it would cost me at the very least £5k per year (I can't see how it would be that cheap to be honest, but lets say for the sake of argument I have a room with incredibly cheap rent and I don't use much electricity etc). So we're now running at £30,000. Most studios are running much more gear than me and much more expensive gear, but, lets forget that for the time being. As it stands, £600 seems very cheap and if you can produce something better than a decent producer/engineer can for less than £600, I'd be shocked for one, but I'd take my hat off to you.
The reality is, it's not going to sound great on the budget you (don't) have.
Chris. |
www.myspace.com/milocho
www.myspace.com/raisingangelsmusic |
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 16:48:24
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With all due respect, I dont think you have to spend 20k on recording education. The people I know that put out quality recording are all self taught, the internet can offer a vast amount of information too. I totally appreciate where you're comming from and that I wont be able to create something as good as a professional, but what we need to do is a small demo to pass out at gigs. We have only done one gig! so we are just starting out as a band and wanted something to push to people that come to see us and to promote ourselves. I'm sure with the gear I have and time I'm willing to spend on it, I will be able to create something usable.
I know I wont be able to beat going to a studio. I wasn't asking for advice on what to do, we've made our minds up that its not financially possible to get some one to record us. I also don't yet see the point in spending money on a band that has just started up. And like I said, I'm not sure how much we would get charged per day, I only guessed that, which you seem to think is cheap so therefore I'm even more pushed away from a "studio" at this point in time
Thanks for your input anyhow.
ANT |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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RickB
Excellent Contributer
185 Posts |
Posted - 28/09/2011 : 14:47:52
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Just my £0.02 (value can go down as well as up!!), is that a lot of recording courses focus on using the technology first, and not the music.
As a consequence we have a number of educated engineers, rather than producers and musicians. This is not bad, but there are 2 things that make the biggest difference to any recording: 1) the talent and preparation of the players, and 2) the room you are recording in. Everything else (pretty much) is technology you can buy down your local music shop, or (more and more) download for peanuts of the web.
For example you can spend £300 and get a 16 track Zoom R16, and reaper, with a million (exaggerating for effect) times the processing power of what was available int he 60s, and still not produce Sgt Pepper.
Focus on the music first, and then find a decent sounding room, and take a little time to learn the craft.
I multitrack record every live gig I do, and spend hours fiddling and tinkering with recordings. One benefit, is that our on stage sound have improved immensely as a result, and I am becoming a half decent studio recorder as well.
My background is drumming and live sound, but I am a techy at heart, and love fiddling with gear!! |
Doing stuff with a Pearl Reference kit, Sabian cymbals and Vater sticks.
http://photobucket.com/PearlReference
http://www.final-hour.com
http://www.youtube.com/finalhourmetal |
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TrevCircleStudios
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 28/09/2011 : 20:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by RickB
Just my £0.02 (value can go down as well as up!!), is that a lot of recording courses focus on using the technology first, and not the music.
As a consequence we have a number of educated engineers, rather than producers and musicians. This is not bad, but there are 2 things that make the biggest difference to any recording: 1) the talent and preparation of the players, and 2) the room you are recording in. Everything else (pretty much) is technology you can buy down your local music shop, or (more and more) download for peanuts of the web.
For example you can spend £300 and get a 16 track Zoom R16, and reaper, with a million (exaggerating for effect) times the processing power of what was available int he 60s, and still not produce Sgt Pepper.
Focus on the music first, and then find a decent sounding room, and take a little time to learn the craft.
I multitrack record every live gig I do, and spend hours fiddling and tinkering with recordings. One benefit, is that our on stage sound have improved immensely as a result, and I am becoming a half decent studio recorder as well.
My background is drumming and live sound, but I am a techy at heart, and love fiddling with gear!!
Amen. It's all about the music after all not the technology! Also what I've seen from the guys who come here to work after their recording schools is that they only scratch the surface on how to use the gear properly.
For the guy who said it might cost £30k to set up a pro studio, I'm at £400k and counting. Stop and do the maths on that for a second.
For the OP, if all you want is demos, there's absolutely no reason not to do it yourself. But dont get lost in the technology, it really is all about the music at the stage it sounds like you are at. Worry about making a record when you are ready to and when you are, don't forget that all 'pro' studios aren't made equal.
good luck! |
You can't polish a turd!
www.circlestudios.co.uk |
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 14:06:57
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I'm glad I popped my head through the door...
Trev... Thanks for the support and encouragement. Thats helped! Also the technology started to take over...
So yes. Back to basics from today and just get these tracks done! (We are now doing 6-8 songs instead). I have had only one problem with guitar so far
When he palm mutes he goes super loud and "distorted"/with a huge humming sort of thing. This CAN be sorted by taking out the "mids" and lows", is there something I have done wrong while recording him? I used SM57 and the SE2000s (I AM LOVING THESE MICS!!) on his cab REALLY close (Centre of the speakers)
But that is just for future reference.
Any way hoping to get these done for next year then start gigging the band :D
ant |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14642 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 16:54:20
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My recording equipment cost well under £2,000 and I record in my workshop. The results I get might not be top pro quality, but they are easily good enough for all but the pickiest technophile. I always follow the ideal of making the music sound its best, not adding superfluous tracks just because I can. I have a frien with a far fancier and more expensive set up, and he was genuinely knocked out by the clarity and freshness of my recordings, but I know it is much less to do with the gear, and much more to do with letting the music live and breathe, warts and all, rather than swamping it in extra tracks and extra processing, and editing out every slightest imperfection.
A great photo can be taken on a simple hand-held camera, and the same follows for music. Of course having a superb camera maximises your chances of getting a really great photo and being able to get the very best quality for it, but the subject matter is the most important, and this holds true with music. Of course I would LOVE state of the art gear, but making the most of what I have is fine. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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drummerant
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1348 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 19:47:27
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Definately sir!
The only pain I have is having to set the kit up and down and lug my pc etc etc to our rehersal space to do it all every now and then! And also not being able to sit and do it during the day, its tiring at night after a 10 hour shift...
I do really enjoy it and feel I'm actually learning by having more hands on! I really want to buy somewhere out in the sticks ( a barn or whatever) where I could have all of this set up and good to go!
Would recording the drums be a silly idea at my work? Basically a workshop/warehouse kind of place? I've always found my kit sounds its best with out carpets etc on the wall and hard floors etc etc...
Might be a silly thing? |
www.fvfdrums.co.uk |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14642 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 20:17:32
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I like a big lively room rather than a tiny padded cell, and it sounds like you do too; if you can get away with then it's not silly at all, go for it!
An approach I often use is to get out my PZMs (Madam) and put one on the floor in front of the kit and one on the ceiling above it with little toggles fixed there; I have 2 sets of ceiling toggles so I can have the top mic overhead or slightly behind the kit. This gives a great overall sound, but a snare mic and perhaps one or two others for Hihat etc can be added to focus in on selected instruments for more punch. PZM/Boundary mics are very handy things for drum kits and percussion, especially on a budget, because you can get a good basic sound easily then add focus/sparkle/punch mics as needed.
If your room sounds too big move all mics closer to sources, move the sliders down accordingly and that eliminates a fair bit of the room echo. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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TrevCircleStudios
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 20:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by drummerant
I have had only one problem with guitar so far
When he palm mutes he goes super loud and "distorted"/with a huge humming sort of thing. This CAN be sorted by taking out the "mids" and lows", is there something I have done wrong while recording him? I used SM57 and the SE2000s (I AM LOVING THESE MICS!!) on his cab REALLY close (Centre of the speakers)
Sounds like you would be better to record him doing palm mutes again if you can as trying to 'fix it in the mix' inevitably fails. Bear in mind that the closer you point the mic to the edge of the cone, the beefier sound you'll get, the more you point towards the centre of the cone, the treblier it will sound.
quote:
Would recording the drums be a silly idea at my work? Basically a workshop/warehouse kind of place? I've always found my kit sounds its best with out carpets etc on the wall and hard floors etc etc...
Might be a silly thing?
Absolutely not. Drums need to breathe to sound their best. Better to be in a big room using gobos to dampen the sound than in a nasty one full of foam and carpet that just sounds boxy. FWIW real pro studios don't tend to have tiny rooms with carpeted and foamed walls. They are really only 'demo studios' as far as I'm concerned (whatever their publicity says). Get out to you workspace and move the mics around and see what you can get. The most fun bit of this job is the experimentation! |
You can't polish a turd!
www.circlestudios.co.uk |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14642 Posts |
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christianmurphy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2011 : 22:06:26
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Love the sound of a pair of room mics in a nice sounding big space, proper slammed with a nice compressor. Yum!  |
79 Ludwig - Pearl Masters - Istanbul - Zildjian - DW |
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thumpbop
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
165 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 14:31:17
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In my very very limited experience - if the drums sound good in a room then you need to do far less with the confusing technology bits.
We did a few drum tracks in a massive church hall before and all the processing bits our friend/engineer did just made them sound worse and worse and I ended up insisting going back to the pure room sound as much as possible.
Go for the good room and you'll have so much less work to do in the area that requires the skill. |
"...like the ghost of Gene Krupa/with an overhead cam and glasspacks."
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victimunknown
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1032 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2012 : 20:04:37
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| your shortstack toms won't help the "cardboard" problem you have! moving the close mics about 3/4" away from the tom and facing the centre of the tom will help a bit... |
facebook.com/dearsleeper |
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